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gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 9:11:11 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse "Have you ever wondered why you've never heard a "food versus flowers debate?" After all, we have an enormous amount of farmland devoted to raising flowers around the world. I've stood in places where as far as you can see in any direction are endless fields of flowers growing on prime farmland."Food Versus Flower Debate

gamechanger2011

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Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 9:11:11 AM

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"Have you ever wondered why you've never heard a "food versus flowers debate?" After all, we have an enormous amount of farmland devoted to raising flowers around the world. I've stood in places where as far as you can see in any direction are endless fields of flowers growing on prime farmland."Food Versus Flower Debate

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brerrabbitTX Champion Author Houston Posts:1,030 Points:18,285 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 10:47:28 AM Ignore brerrabbitTX Report Abuse Slight reality injection. We produce flowers, tobacco, distillers grains for drinking whiskey and beer, as well as Christmas trees and other agricultural products in lew of corn because there is money to be made in so doing. The amounts of any product be it agricultural or anything else in a free market economy is dictated by supply and demand. When you introduce artificial mandates or incentives into the free market you will induce different behaviors. If at some point there is a shortage of food and prices rise considerably for food then you will see the free market economy shift their output to optimize the return available by plowing under flowers, tobacco, or distiller grains in order to produce more of the higher value cash crops. Corn on the other hand is artificially propped up by governmetal mandates which in the current scenario is prompting ethanol producers to operate in the red and sell their product at a loss. With the introduction of artificail mandates and requirements you force the market to do things that are not based on economic rationale. Such is the current case with corn. Without the volumetric mandates at this point many more ethanol plants would be idled and the gas sold would not have 10% ethanol but would rather convert to pure gas. Corn that was availble could then be used in the food market to help stabilize both price and availability. Governmental intrusion in the market has led to less than finacially optimal solution. [Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 8/28/2012 1:49:34 PM EST]
Sneakers55 Champion Author Houston Posts:51,340 Points:2,145,125 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Aug 28, 2012 9:30:15 AM Ignore Sneakers55 Report Abuse On Jul 27, 2012 1:38:42 PM, SilverStreaker wrote: >reb4 asks "what government mandate is their to use oil" >How about the one that requires 15% gasoline in E85? Well, they have 15% gasoline in E85 so that it can light off.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,129 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jul 28, 2012 3:17:15 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse goldseeker, what does the nrel do? They sponsored the report. If you wish to dispute it, please do so.Silverstreaker, so you bicycle in the heet, rain and snow, impressive. I walk 4 miles and in the heat / snow I take additional public transportation. Oh, i commute 20 miles to work on commuter train. My wife and I mostly use just the Prius now.. Got a pretty low tank only acheiving 52.3MPG but considering i used it for moving and with a lot of heavy a/c use i'm alright with that. My "carbon foot print" is quite acceptable to me. I have absolutely no plans on using any additional ethanol in my vehicles. If I owned an ffv would use it but I chose a different alternative by aquiring a fuel efficient vehicle instead of choosing to use corn ethanol... also my auto manufacturer indicates that I should use up to e10... But does not recommend more. The government even indicates that the ffv's are different than non ffv's ffv vehiclesAs for land, no, dont own but a city lot which is roughly 60 by 120 feet! I have two rows I have for a garden, which is along the length of the garage which is about 20 feet by 3 feet. My community will not allow planting a garden in front of house and due to trees limited to this section for growth of garden. [Edited by: reb4 at 7/28/2012 6:31:23 PM EST]
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,949 Points:2,218,190 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jul 28, 2012 11:10:16 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse reb4 asks "Are you finally bumping the limits of the e85 on your two vehicles?" As I've stated in the past, I sold the Ford Windstar about 18 months ago. I began bicycle commuting regularly about 3 years ago and we didn't need two cars. I've also stated many times that I run the Honda CRV on as high an ethanol concentration that I can without having the emissions light come on. If I run over about 35% ethanol, the oxygen sensors detect too much oxygen in the exhaust and the Honda CRV has a separate light indicator. Most cars just use the Check Engine Light for that. So when are you going to try something other than just E10 in your cars? It' hard to provide any personal experience when you haven't any. Getting back on subject, do you own any property and if so, is all of that property used for housing or growing food?
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,559 Points:2,720,765 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jul 27, 2012 9:03:17 PM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse National Survey by who???? The Coordinating Research Council, Inc. (CRC) is a non-profit corporation supported by the petroleum and automotive equipment industries. Just a wee bit tainted.
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,129 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jul 27, 2012 6:17:23 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Silverstreaker, that is very funny... do you think there may be some significant issues with offering higher levels of ethanol in fuel??? NATIONAL SURVEY OF E85 QUALITY Alternative Fuels Data Center Are you finally bumping the limits of the e85 on your two vehicles? Of course, I doubt if you do, that you have any trouble in the winter since e85 really isn't e85... :-)
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,949 Points:2,218,190 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jul 27, 2012 11:38:42 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse reb4 asks "what government mandate is their to use oil" How about the one that requires 15% gasoline in E85?
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,129 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jul 27, 2012 11:33:37 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse "All you have to do is look at the Oil Lobby Reb4 " Gamechanger2011, you are so funny, what government mandate is their to use oil? Let me know where that is will ya...
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,559 Points:2,720,765 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jul 27, 2012 11:01:49 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Might as well throw my two cents into the mix. Every year millions of bushels of corn is sold to hunters to feed deer. Most every Walmart sells it, and also many convenient stores. I suppose it is ok, since it is used as a food item, even if it is for wildlife. Oh, by the way, some folks like me do use corn in their pellet stoves to heat their homes.
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Jul 27, 2012 10:34:37 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse All you have to do is look at the Oil Lobby Reb4
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,129 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 7:11:26 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Information on CHristmas Trees... By the way, we have had an artificial tree for about 9 years... [Edited by: reb4 at 7/26/2012 10:12:44 PM EST]
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,129 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 6:55:10 PM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse gamechanger2011, you are funny, how could I not get the "point"... all you have to look at is its from the ethanol lobby but the real interesting "point" is can they back up their little marketing claim... we will see... [Edited by: reb4 at 7/26/2012 9:57:41 PM EST]
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 6:43:55 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Reb4....read the rest of the article....I think that you are missing the point. "The flower industry is only one of many we could mention. How about booze? How much land is devoted to raising crops just for liquor or beer? Shouldn't that land be devoted to food? How many food crops does it take to make a bottle of bourbon? Why don't we hear of a "food versus booze" debate? Or is booze more important than transportation? It seems to me I need to get to work, but I don't need to get a buzz (or buy flowers, for that matter). What about Christmas trees? What about dog and cat food? Are these more important than starving people or transportation?" [Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/26/2012 9:46:58 AM EST]
reb4 Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,129 Points:1,824,075 Joined:Sep 2004	Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 6:22:07 AM Ignore reb4 Report Abuse Here is a publication on Floriculture production in USA - Kind of old I think this indicates 500,000 acres were used for flower production. How many acres were used for Ethanol production? Has the government mandated flower production be produced, over food? [Edited by: reb4 at 7/26/2012 9:24:21 AM EST]
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 6:28:08 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Yet ethanol takes the hit EVERY time in the fuel versus food debate...
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,559 Points:2,720,765 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 11:51:06 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse There is also plenty of land devoted to tobacco, which is an excellent cash crop, and also helps the medical field rake in billions for cancer and respitory treatments.
priznsara Champion Author New Mexico Posts:3,658 Points:533,620 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 10:47:55 AM Ignore priznsara Report Abuse Miles and miles of flowers would be nice....
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,949 Points:2,218,190 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 10:35:16 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse How much land in the US is grass? I'll bet most of the corn for fuel whiners have lawns and/or play golf.
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,549 Points:54,690 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 9:14:35 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse "How many giant greenhouses are devoted to growing flowers around the world? Shouldn't all these resources be used for food? Are all these fields and greenhouses causing worldwide starvation? Is the massive flower industry raising the price of food? Certainly if all those fields were used for growing food crops, the price of food would drop."